How well would the 416z and the 604c combine?

[LICORNE]

Hi
Good day,

I have the specs for the 6041.This concept is good.
I

[joyspring]

Steve:

Why not use the 416 as a sub?

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Because its low frequency (particularly _very_ low frequency) performance is not commensurate with its physical size compared to modern drivers and, more importantly, modern source media.

Total linear displacement is 0.15 inches and total volume displacement is 19.2 in^3.

By comparison, the NHT 1259 (used in the NHT 3.3) is a 30 cm driver that has a 13 mm Xmax and 638 cm^3 volume displacement. US$150 brand new from Madisound with T-S parameters that allow a solid 30 hz cutoff from a 90 litre sealed enclosure.

Twice the volume displaced from a 12" driver (compared to the 15" 416) that offers a solid, maximally-flat response to 30 hz.

Also consider that the 416 has a very light (and not very stiff) cone. And its doped, cloth accordian surround is optimised for MF edge damping rather than large excursions.

Yes, a 416-based system can be coaxed into a 30 hz cutoff but which will play louder? More importantly, which will produce less distortion at equivalent acoustic output in the two octave 20 hz - 80 hz band?

Because of improved material science, magnetic motor optimisation and understanding of Thiele-Small parameters, we now have excellent drivers that are (relatively) inexpensive and offer performance magnitudes of order better in the sub-100 hz than what was available even 20 years ago...

And the NHT 1259 is only one example...

Despite some maligning I have seen on "the other" Lansing fan site, it should work quite well. I was looking at some specs a while back (can't remember the program) and it was almost identical to the JBL LE15 which always had the reputation as a real bottom end thumper.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I had a look at the T-S parameters of both the 416 (Altec Thiele-Small parameters) and the LE15 (JBL Thiele-Small parameters) and indeed the 416 and LE15 are very close and ought to be quite close in sonic characteristics particularly in the two octave 20 hz - 80 hz area.

The `other' Lansing site LE15 fans must either suffer from:

<ul>[*]poor memory (seemingly very common amongst `vintage' equipment advocates) --or--[*]little experience with modern systems[/list]

Just because the `other' Lansing site fans advocate for a company (JBL/Harmon Int'l) retains some of the best electro-acoustic engineers and researchers in the world (e.g. - Keele, Floyd Toole, Eargle, et al.) - including many Altec alums - doesn't necessarily keep them immune from blind advocacy.

BobR

[Steve Burger]

And what efficiency are we talking on the drivers mentioned?????????????

[theophile]

Jeez,I can't tell you how pleased I am with the response here to my enquiry, kinda makes me feel happy that I bought a pair of 604c drivers that I had no need for.
My intention was to have a pair of Altec speakers to integrate into a surround system in the future.Some investigation on my part turned up the fact that the 604s were the monitoring speaker of choice(which I never realised when I bought them)which had me thinking that they may turn out to be preferable to my Valencias as my main speakers.
Further pondering the whole situation prompted me to consider whether the marriage I've posted on in this thread had any chance of being a feasable reality.Well you guys have shown me that it's not only feasable but eminently desirable.
If anyone knows where I'd be able to obtain cabinet plans for this project or could chime in with box dimensions port sizes etc,I'd appreciate the input.Just think you could be helping to resurrect a facsimilie of a truly classic Altec design!
Thanks for everyone's input up to this point.
Steve.

[joyspring]

Steve:

And what efficiency are we talking on the drivers mentioned?????????????

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">On the NHT 1259 (as well as most sub-optimised drivers), quite low; nominally 86 db 1W/1M.

Theophile mentioned the intention to biamplify so this is rather a moot point.

I see what you're alluding to but keep in mind that efficiency has very little to do with maximum acoustic output below 100 hz; in these lower octaves, maximum large signal acoustic output is limited by physical displacement rather than electrical input power.

BobR

[theophile]

Convergence thanks,
I look forward to any further input.

[LICORNE]

I found several pictures,

[LICORNE]

HI THEOPHILE

YOU POSTED :"could chime in with box dimensions port sizes etc,I'd appreciate the input.Just think you could be helping to resurrect a facsimilie of a truly classic Altec design!".

The dimensions of the Japanese 604 1 recording dtudio cabinets are the following :
H:44.69inches
W:23.62inches
D:18.50inhes

I'm still looking for the port size.

I hope this will help.

CONVERGENCE

[LICORNE]

Bob R wrote concerning the 416 :"Total linear displacement is 0.15 inches and total volume displacement is 19.2 in^3."

If you compare with the 3184 on the same
Thiele-Small Paramet.spread sheet you can tell the 416 is not a sub speaker.

3184 ( 0.25 ) 6.50 (44.10 ) 24.00 24.40 3.30 0.22 1.38 0.26 0.30

416-8B ( 0.15 ) 6.90 ( 19.20 ) 25.10 26.47 2.70 0.32 7.05 0.33 0.20

THEREFORE THE 3184 IS A SUBWOOFER WITH A TOTAL DISPLACEMENT OF .25.

[joyspring]

CONVERGENCE:

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

All I see are numbers with no units or descriptions... not very helpful in stating your point really.

ARE THESE WINNING LOTTERY NUMBERS? CAN I USE THESE TO QUIT MY TEACHING POSITION AFTER THIS WEDNESDAY'S CALIFORNIA LOTTERY DRAWING AND RETIRE TO AUCKLAND?

Also, a bit of friendly advice: IT IS CONSIDERED POOR NETIQUETTE TO USE ALL-CAPS REGULARLY.

BOBR